Perhaps opening a space for dialogue with a friend of the stature and standing of researcher Hassan Al-Mustafa is enriching for the interviewer even more than for the reader, and even reassuring, since what is going on in the mind is troubling until someone comes along to share it with you without suspicion. Here is an intellectual who only uses words appropriately and ensures that each word has a single meaning. Moreover, his journalistic sense, acquired through a distinguished period in the realm of journalism, removes any suspicion of the question or the questioner, and opens the doors of good faith to encourage the cultivation of more of the delightful field of answers. Here is a timely dialogue about central issues that encompass the interplay between religion and the state within a ceiling of freedom that is almost imperceptible. So, here is the text of the dialogue:

• Has national identity in the Arab world been affected by a ambiguity that has confused and misled it?

•• Identity in the Arab world suffers from great cognitive confusion, as it is always presented in a distorted and conflicting manner, as if Arabs are faced with a choice between opposing dualities, and that they must choose between one identity or another, otherwise the Arab individual will be without his identity!

This ambiguous understanding of identity is due to its modernity, as (national identity) in particular is a relatively new concept, and it has met with opposition from several currents: Islamist, nationalist, and populist, which has also made the concept of (homeland) confused for some, between those who believe in it in an isolationist way and those who reject it and present the concept of “the nation” instead.

Another thing is that identity is always presented as singular and rigid, whereas identity is a living entity that is formed and shaped by time, experiences, ideas, geography, and ideologies. That is, individual identity is a set of overlapping and composite identities, the result of which is collective and national identity. Therefore, there is an individual identity that is integrated with national identity, without a person needing to live in debate between his identities. Rather, he must know how to combine them, and at the same time how to elevate the status of (national identity), whose foundation is (comprehensive citizenship), which is one of the pillars of the modern civil state.

Why do individuals, and perhaps some societies, still struggle with more than one identity at a time?

•• There is no problem with having more than one identity, for example, being Muslim, Arab and Saudi at the same time.

Sub-identities based on religion, ethnicity, tribe, or region are not inherently problematic; they are cultural and social components, a source of richness and diversity. The issue arises when individuals experience conflict and contradiction between these identities, or when a narrow identity is prioritized over a broader, more inclusive one. Therefore, the foundation lies in the modern, evolving civil state, with its evolving identity that encompasses the diverse sub-identities it includes.

We must not forget that national identity has not been theorized scientifically in the Arab world, free from the burden of historical, ethnic, or sectarian conflicts. This has led to a state of conflict with other identities. Hence the need for a modern, flexible national identity, capable of uniting diverse components and transforming them into elements of strength, not division.

• Based on your objective reading of the stages of transformations, in which stage did the spirit of Saudi citizenship manifest itself?

•• In my opinion, the Saudi national spirit has been present since the establishment of the modern state, and the proof of this is the ability of the late founder, King Abdulaziz bin Abdul Rahman Al Saud, to unify the state, and the people’s rallying around him and their acceptance of his rule, because if we go back to history, we will find that some regions of the Kingdom were suffering from highway robbers, tribal conflicts, looting and attacks on caravans from time to time, and King Abdulaziz came to extend security over the vast land of the Kingdom, with its diverse cultures, customs and sects, and he dealt with the different regions with great awareness, preserving the identity of each city or human group, and this is a point of strength for the founding king and evidence of his foresight.

So, the Saudi national spirit has always existed. What is new is the Saudis' awareness of their identity, their view of it, and their desire to elevate its status. Also, there is a culture that has begun to spread clearly about the importance of establishing the rule of law, justice, equality, and the authority of the state. These concepts are mainly linked to (comprehensive citizenship), which, although it is a modern concept, is being discussed by Saudi writers, on television screens, and on social media.

Certainly there are some gaps in ideas and among the general public, and this is very normal, but the national spirit is growing day by day, and the most important thing is that it is formed in a conscious scientific way, far from reproducing the self in the manner of poets in the Arab conscience, which is sometimes more illusory than scientific!

• How do you see the future of those who rely on pre-state components (tribe, sect, region, doctrine)?

•• Pre-state components cannot form a modern civil state, nor can they establish a broad national consensus.

Tribe, sect, doctrine, and region are all respectable details and an undeniable reality. However, none of these sub-identities should take precedence over the homeland, because the homeland is the foundation, and the rest of the cultural and social diversity comes from under it and within the framework of its diversity.

What are the most prominent features of citizenship under Vision 2030?

•• The power of Vision 2030 has created a high national spirit, given hope to Saudis, and made them proud of themselves, a pride based on science, work, awareness, building a strong state, and participating in human civilization.

At the same time, the vision worked to consolidate equality and equal opportunities and prevented favoritism or tribal, regional or sectarian discrimination, and made everyone equal before the law; which means that it raised the value of (citizenship) in contrast to other distinctions!

• Where do developing countries get their strength from, and how did the Kingdom avoid all the problems that some tried to drag it into?

•• Development can only be achieved through an advanced education system, long-term economic plans, modern, flexible and transparent laws, a safe and stable environment, and also good governance of governmental and institutional work.

These details were emphasized in the Kingdom’s Vision 2030, and Crown Prince Mohammed bin Salman Al Saud spoke about them on more than one occasion, pointing to the importance of legislation and administrative reforms in the development of the state, and this is what made the Kingdom avoid stagnation or remaining hostage to government bureaucracy.

What is the secret behind the breaking down of all barriers between the Saudi people, and the decline or disappearance of the taming of segregation?

•• The answer, in simple terms, is that the secret lies in the frank and clear discourse of the Custodian of the Two Holy Mosques, King Salman bin Abdulaziz, and his Crown Prince, Prince Mohammed bin Salman, and their rejection of sectarian, regional, and racist divisions, and the emphasis of the Supreme Authority on the fact that Saudis are equal and there is no difference between them.

On the other hand, the Kingdom worked on enacting laws that criminalize hate speech and racism, and took steps to reform religious discourse, remove extremists from Friday pulpits, and criminalize sectarian speeches. All these steps fortified society and made it more aware of the importance of citizenship.

Don't you see that the Shiite component has succeeded in prioritizing the option of citizenship over all else?

The citizens of Qatif, Al-Ahsa, Medina, Najran, and all other regions are Saudis first and foremost. Their loyalty is to their homeland, they reject any tampering with its security and stability, and they are actively engaged in achieving the goals of the Kingdom's Vision 2030.

What made them succeed today is the strength of the (Vision) and its architect, Prince Mohammed bin Salman, who, according to his directives, has worked to purify the general environment of extremists and takfiris from various sects.

Now there is a great and widespread awareness among a broad public of citizens that they are Saudis first, and that their Saudi identity precedes their sectarian identity, whether Sunni or Shiite, and that these sectarian identities should not turn into an element of conflict or animosity, but rather everyone is a Saudi Muslim citizen equal in rights and duties, and that loyalty is to the homeland and its political leadership and not to any parties, movements or foreign countries.

What are the motives behind such cultural elevation?

•• The main motivation is the belief that the state is the one that protects citizens, and that the sect or tribe does not.

What protects citizens and brings them well-being is a strong and stable nation-state, based on institutions, the rule of law, and respect for cultural and social pluralism.

When did you feel that culture and awareness strengthened belonging to the homeland?

Culture always promotes national belonging, because it creates an awareness that difference is an element of richness, and diversity is an element of strength. Thus, these subcultures become sources of richness, and this is what we find now - for example - (the Saudi Ministry of Culture) working on through its various programs and bodies, whether through diversity in fashions, cuisines, dialects, or ways of writing and thinking.

• Have you experienced critical periods on a personal level because of your patriotic stance imbued with genuine emotion?

Instincts are easily aroused, which is why loud, sectarian, or monolithic voices have a wide reach; because emotions govern the collective mind. Therefore, what I strive to present—calm, rational, and patriotic ideas discussed openly without insults, contempt, or personal attacks—this calm, critical approach is disliked by many because it doesn't satisfy their instincts and because it presents itself above sect, doctrine, region, and tribe. Hence, it's natural that it often encounters objections from hardliners on multiple opposing sides! However, this shouldn't deter me or cause me to retreat, but rather to continue my national work, because the goal is reform, not destruction. The goal is to build a truly pluralistic and progressive society that fulfills the vision of the Kingdom's Vision 2030.

Between the instinctual nature of some and the sectarianism of others in our Arab world, how can they be convinced to unite around a common ground?

•• Frankly, the situation is very critical, especially in light of the current wars and crises in the Middle East. Therefore, I personally believe that we must now rally around our leadership in Saudi Arabia, strengthen our national unity, and be wary of bringing in crises from abroad. We must reject sectarian and racist rhetoric that some seek to incite in Saudi society, whether out of ignorance, intentionally, or for partisan purposes!

It is a blessing from God that we are in a strong, stable country, preoccupied with development and major economic and social projects, and governed by the rule of law. Therefore, these are elements of strength that must be preserved and strengthened.

• How do we reconcile the ideas of the great Persian philosophers (the Illuminati) with the policies of the regime, which are completely separate from those creative and humane ideas?

•• The first step is to separate the people and the civil intellectual scientists on one hand, and the ruling political system on the other.

Second: It is beneficial for our reading of events to be scientific and far removed from racist or ethnic perspectives, or preconceived interpretations.

Saudi Arabia's current foreign policy focuses on building positive relations with Iran, based on good neighborliness, non-interference in internal affairs, and the rejection of sectarian rhetoric. The Kingdom adopts a rational approach, avoiding negative confrontations and grounded in a long-term vision aimed at mitigating crises and reducing tensions. This policy requires considerable patience and cohesion, but it is effective and beginning to bear fruit.

The Kingdom’s experience is that Riyadh views the Iranian people with respect, as they are our neighbors, and at the same time seeks to address outstanding issues with the ruling regime through communication and frank and transparent dialogue, as well as building trust step by step, as it looks at actions and not just words.

What is your reading of the future of sectarianism in our Arab world?

Sectarianism in the Arab world, unfortunately, is flourishing due to ignorance, fanaticism, and its fueling by extremists. There are also intelligence agencies that want Arabs to remain in pointless, futile sectarian wars, and unfortunately, there are Arabs who carry out these hateful projects without awareness.

In Saudi Arabia, we have a bright spot: the state stands firmly against sectarian rhetoric, rejects it categorically, and holds those who promote it accountable. Furthermore, a large segment of society rejects sectarianism, and there is also a fear of the negative impact of sectarian conflicts on society. Therefore, Saudis strive to avoid importing crises from abroad.

Certainly there are sectarian voices within, but they are afraid to voice their opinion for fear of the law, and the broader process of change needs more time, but it has begun.

• How can we protect younger generations from the vaccine of the culture of death?

• More free critical thinking, a civic vision, and viewing religion as a mercy to the worlds and a cornerstone of social peace.

A frank review of fundamentalist discourses, the de-sanctification of symbols of violence, and the scientific dismantling of their discourse, without insults and without superficiality in dealing with it, all of this would create an awareness that prevents the spread of the culture of death, but it is certainly a long process that requires cumulative action and institutional work.